clean-up the transcription and add a few links

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 <a href="#part1">I: P2PANDA, LIBP2P, P4P, MDNS, NATS </a><br/>
-<a href="#part2">II: Terrence Mckenna, "Find The Others", Network Weaving, The Standardization Of Time</a><br/>
+<a href="#part2">II: Terence McKenna, "Find The Others", Network Weaving, The Standardization Of Time</a><br/>
 <a href="#part3">III: Mycofiltration, Urban & Rural Exchange</a><br/>
 <a href="#part4">IV: Open Source & Decentralized Cooperatives, Income Sharing</a><br/>
     </div>
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 <strong>glyph:</strong> Yeah.<br/>
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-<strong>max:</strong> It's really nice. There's a <a href="https://journals.openedition.org/ardeth/2194?lang=en">nice paper</a> someone wrote about it too, as this self-hostable software that is supposed to be particularly designed for learning, I think, [INAUDIBLE] and stuff.<br/>
+<strong>max:</strong> It's really nice. There's a <a href="https://journals.openedition.org/ardeth/2194?lang=en">nice paper</a> someone wrote about their intentions for it too, as this self-hostable software that is supposed to be particularly designed for learning, I think, like in classrooms and stuff.<br/>
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 <strong>glyph:</strong> OK, nice.<br/>
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-<strong>max:</strong> But yeah, we're kind of gorilla occupying this big blue button instance at the moment. Because I haven't talked to the people at <a href="http://domainepublic.net">domainepublic.net</a>. Alice just noticed that they had an open instance that you could sign up for. So we wanted to email them and confirm that they were OK with us using their instance for our class, which seemed like good etiquette. Rather than just arriving like I just noticed you had a yard where some stuff was happening, and all of a sudden we just started teaching a 30 person class on it...<br/>
+<strong>max:</strong> But yeah, we're kind of gorilla occupying this big blue button instance at the moment. Because I haven't talked to the people at <a href="http://domainepublic.net">domainepublic.net</a>. We just noticed that they had an open instance that you could sign up for. So we wanted to email them and confirm that they were OK with us using their instance for our class, which seemed like good etiquette. Rather than just arriving. Like if someone just noticed you had a yard where some stuff was happening, and all of a sudden started teaching a 30 person class on it...<br/>
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 <strong>glyph:</strong> Yeah, might be a breach of etiquette.<br/>
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-<strong>max:</strong> So anyway, we started talking about your recent work with <a href="https://p2panda.org/">P2Panda</a>, but then paused so that we could turn on recording. I would love to hear more about what's going on there and with <a href="https://libp2p.io/">libp2p</a>. And maybe even just to introduce the project a little bit.<br/>
+<strong>max:</strong> So anyway, we started talking about your recent work with <a href="https://p2panda.org/">p2panda</a>, but then paused so that we could turn on recording. I would love to hear more about what's going on there and with <a href="https://libp2p.io/">libp2p</a>. And maybe even just to introduce the project a little bit.<br/>
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-<strong>glyph:</strong> Yeah, so hopefully I do it justice. I'm told P2Panda was born out of festival organization. I think that's what Sam and Andreas and their friends were involved in originally. They kind of have backgrounds as musicians and are quite active in the art space. So they wanted to be able to to organize festivals and build software to aid in that, like how do you share information relating to a festival and how do you allow participants to communicate with one another. And I think there may be some commercial offerings for that. But eventually that led to build P2Panda, which is a toolkit for building decentralized applications, and they've done their best to make it really flexible at the lower levels so that the sort of shape of the data for your application can be quite dynamic. It's not predefined by P2Panda software itself.<br/>
+<strong>glyph:</strong> Yeah, so hopefully I do it justice. I'm told p2panda was born out of festival organization. I think that's what Sam and Andreas and their friends were involved in originally. They kind of have backgrounds as musicians and are quite active in the art space. So they wanted to be able to to organize festivals and build software to aid in that, like how do you share information relating to a festival and how do you allow participants to communicate with one another. And I think there may be some commercial offerings for that. But eventually that led them to build p2panda, which is a toolkit for building decentralized applications, and they've done their best to make it really flexible at the lower levels so that the sort of shape of the data for your application can be quite dynamic. It's not predefined by p2panda software itself.<br/>
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-They were funded by an NLNet grant. So it's Andreas and Sam and Vincent and I think Pete and Sophistica were all involved and maybe Aljoscha a little bit as well and now they've gotten a second NLnet grant to extend the work that they've done and part of that is networking and replication. So I was originally brought on board to write a connection manager. That was something that I'd voiced to Sam that I was interested in. We have a weekly, it's called a P4P meeting, like peer for peer, mumble call that we have every Monday, which is kind of like a, I guess, like a peer to peer coffee meeting &mdash; it's kind of got that vibe of like sitting down with your friends to have some tea. So we chat a little bit about personal stuff. And then we share what we're working on at the moment.<br/>
+They were funded by an NLNet grant. So it's Andreas and Sam and Vincent and I think Pete and sophiiistika were all involved and maybe Aljoscha a little bit as well and now they've gotten a second NLnet grant to extend the work that they've done and part of that is networking and replication. So I was originally brought on board to write a connection manager. That was something that I'd voiced to Sam that I was interested in. We have a weekly, it's called a P4P meeting, like peer for peer, mumble call that we have every Monday, which is kind of like a, I guess, like a peer to peer coffee meeting &mdash; it's kind of got that vibe of like sitting down with your friends to have some tea. So we chat a little bit about personal stuff. And then we share what we're working on at the moment.<br/>
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-Gwil from <a href="https://earthstar-project.org/">EarthStar</a>, is also a part of that. And I'd mentioned in those calls, like, Oh, I want to write a connection manager, like just for the sake of learning. And then it was also going to be applicable for solar, which is this scuttlebutt node that I've been contributing to. So that was sort of my entry to the project.<br/>
+Gwil from <a href="https://earthstar-project.org/">EarthStar</a>, is also a part of that. And I'd mentioned in those calls, like: "Oh, I want to write a connection manager, like just for the sake of learning". And then it was also going to be applicable for <a href="https://github.com/mycognosist/solar">solar</a>, which is this Scuttlebutt node that I've been contributing to. So that was sort of my entry to the project.<br/>
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-And one of the cool things about the P2Panda team is they really put a big emphasis on research and reading and planning before any code is written. So we did quite a stack of reading in terms of what our options were for the networking layer. and libp2p was coming up in those conversations. It's kind of interesting because I think in some of the, like at least among some of the, what I call the scuttlebut crowd, maybe libp2p had this, I don't know, there's some like tension about it or animosity or dislike. And I think I'm missing some context to understand quite why that is. Maybe because of the association with protocol labs and IPFS. But the more research we did and the more folks we spoke with, we thought like actually this is a really good fit for what we're trying to build because libP2P has basically created this toolkit for the networking layer of peer-to-peer applications.<br/>
+And one of the cool things about the p2panda team is they really put a big emphasis on research and reading and planning before any code is written. So we did quite a stack of reading in terms of what our options were for the networking layer. And libp2p was coming up in those conversations. It's kind of interesting because I think in some of the, at least amongst some of the &mdash; what I call the Scuttlebutt crowd &mdash; maybe libp2p had this, I don't know, there's some tension about it or animosity or dislike. And I think I'm missing some context to understand quite why that is. Maybe because of the association with <a href="https://protocol.ai/">Protocol Labs</a> and <a href="https://www.ipfs.com/">IPFS</a>? But the more research we did and the more folks we spoke with, we thought like actually this is a really good fit for what we're trying to build because libp2p has basically created this toolkit for the networking layer of peer-to-peer applications.<br/>
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-Like ok, we realize that this is an inherently difficult thing. You have nodes with kind of different levels of connectivity, a lot of the nodes are behind NATs or firewalls. So there's some really smart engineers working on solutions to this for several years. And there are implementations in many languages. So we just thought, wow, this actually meets our needs and allows us to focus on other parts of the stack and other parts of the development process rather than having to rewrite everything from scratch ourselves. So yeah, that's what I've been working on &mdash; getting the transport up and running and the connection layer done and then starting to work on the discovery layer. So we're using MDNS for example to do local peer discovery.<br/>
+Like OK, we realize that this is an inherently difficult thing. You have nodes with kind of different levels of connectivity; a lot of the nodes are behind NATs or firewalls. So there's some really smart engineers working on solutions to this for several years. And there are implementations in many languages. So we just thought, wow, this actually meets our needs and allows us to focus on other parts of the stack and other parts of the development process rather than having to rewrite everything from scratch ourselves. So yeah, that's what I've been working on &mdash; getting the transport up and running and the connection layer done and then starting to work on the discovery layer. So we're using <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multicast_DNS">mDNS</a>, for example, to do local peer discovery.<br/>
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-<strong>max:</strong> What is MDNS?<br/>
+<strong>max:</strong> What is mDNS?<br/>
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-<strong>glyph:</strong> MDNS, yeah. So it's&mdash; I think it's often used for like network attached devices like printers, for example, where they can advertise a service using UDP multicast, like just broadcasting on the local network. And then other devices can listen for those broadcasts and automatically discover the services on the network.<br/>
+<strong>glyph:</strong> mDNS, yeah. So it's&mdash; I think it's often used for network attached devices like printers, for example, where they can advertise a service using UDP multicast; just broadcasting on the local network. And then other devices can listen for those broadcasts and automatically discover the services on the network.<br/>
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-<strong>max:</strong> Gotcha. I feel like that's a great overview. For me personally, I'm curious about the connection manager. That's a term that I don't really know what it means. So maybe we can make it a little more concrete. Like, is it sort of like, you have different devices or users that are running some type of peer-to-panda thing and you need to find each other and start communicating?<br/>
+<strong>max:</strong> Gotcha. I feel like that's a great overview. For me personally, I'm curious about the connection manager. That's a term that I don't really know what it means. So maybe we can make it a little more concrete. Like, is it sort of like, you have different devices or users that are running some type of p2panda thing and you need to find each other and start communicating?<br/>
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-<strong>glyph:</strong> Yeah, so the connection manager, so there's quite a spectrum of definitions. So what I think of is like a minimal connection manager. It comes before the kind of peer discovery stuff. So let's say you're using TCP as the kind of transport protocol to make connections between your node and another one or your application and another one. So you sort of have to manage the lifecycle of that connection. So you could imagine it going through various phases. Like, at first, maybe the connection is pending. You know, you're reaching out, trying to make the connection. And then it could fail, or you could have a connection established. And then when the connection's established, at one higher level, you want to be aware of, like, how many connections in total do we have established? Because you might be dialing multiple peers at the same time. And if you had lots of peers, you may end up with hundreds or even thousands of connections open. And that might swamp the resources of your device, or your computer. So that's part of the role of the connection manager is saying like, okay, let's set a maximum, maybe a maximum and a minimum limit on how many established connections we can have at one time. That's the sort of very core of it. Then you can extend that functionality a bit by saying, okay, maybe we wanna keep track of all the peers that we've tried to connect to. and we want to persist some state for each peer. So maybe I've tried to dial you five times in a row and it's failed every time. So I wanna keep track of how many failed attempts have there been, when was the last attempt? That kind of a thing. So that's sort of kind of separate from discovering peers because discovery has to do with, "What is your address? How do I find you?" And the connection manager is almost like a level below that.<br/>
+<strong>glyph:</strong> Yeah, so the connection manager...so there's quite a spectrum of definitions. So what I think of is like a minimal connection manager. It comes before the kind of peer discovery stuff. So let's say you're using TCP as the kind of transport protocol to make connections between your node and another one or your application and another one. So you sort of have to manage the lifecycle of that connection. So you could imagine it going through various phases. Like, at first, maybe the connection is pending. You know, you're reaching out, trying to make the connection. And then it could fail, or you could have a connection established. And then when the connection's established, at one higher level, you want to be aware of, like, how many connections in total do we have established? Because you might be dialing multiple peers at the same time. And if you had lots of peers, you may end up with hundreds or even thousands of connections open and that might swamp the resources of your device, or your computer. So that's part of the role of the connection manager is saying like, okay, let's set a maximum, maybe a maximum and a minimum limit on how many established connections we can have at one time. That's the sort of very core of it. Then you can extend that functionality a bit by saying, okay, maybe we wanna keep track of all the peers that we've tried to connect to and we want to persist some state for each peer. So maybe I've tried to dial you five times in a row and it's failed every time. So I wanna keep track of how many failed attempts have there been, when was the last attempt? That kind of a thing. So that's sort of kind of separate from discovering peers because discovery has to do with, "What is your address? How do I find you?" And the connection manager is almost like a level below that.<br/>
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 <strong>max:</strong> I'm getting a little bit confused about below or above. So it's like once you already know who the possible peers are, managing the connections with them?<br/>
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 <strong>glyph:</strong> That's right, that's right.<br/>
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-<strong>max:</strong> And then my next question there&mdash; so probably then, if the connection manager is starting and stopping these connections, are those actually calls to libp2p functions? So are you working with libp2p as a tool that the connection manager uses?<br/>
+<strong>max:</strong> And then my next question there &mdash; so probably then, if the connection manager is starting and stopping these connections, are those actually calls to libp2p functions? So are you working with libp2p as a tool that the connection manager uses?<br/>
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-<strong>glyph:</strong> Yeah, that's right. So libp2p has the concept of a swarm, which is sort of, I guess, the network abstraction. So they give you tools whereby you can create a transport. So this is where you're defining what protocol you're using to make the connections in the first place. So that could just be simple TCP, for example, or for P2Panda, we're using Quic, which runs on top of UDP. So you could create a transport and configure a swarm. And then you start, you sort of, yeah, you start the swarm and that emits events. So you have this kind of event-driven model. And then you can act on any of those events which occur. So let's say one of the swarm events, if you're running the MDNS network protocol would be "peer discovered", or like "MDNS discovery". So a peer is discovered and it triggers this event. And then you can take some action, you could match on that event and say, "Okay, once we discover an MDNS peer, we want to dial them. We wanna try and make a connection." And then if that connection is established successfully, you can run other protocols on top of that. So that's where replication would come in, for example. Okay, once we have this connection established, then we can match on that event, and then we can start our replication protocol, which might be something just very straightforward, like, oh, I've got this information, and what have you got? Let's trade.<br/>
+<strong>glyph:</strong> Yeah, that's right. So libp2p has the concept of a swarm, which is sort of, I guess, the network abstraction. So they give you tools whereby you can create a transport. So this is where you're defining what protocol you're using to make the connections in the first place. So that could just be simple TCP, for example, or for p2panda, we're using <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QUIC">QUIC</a>, which runs on top of UDP. So you could create your transport and configure a swarm and then you start the swarm and that emits events. So you have this kind of event-driven model. And then you can act on any of those events which occur. So let's say one of the swarm events, if you're running the mDNS network protocol, would be "peer discovered" or "mDNS discovery". So a peer is discovered and it triggers this event. And then you can take some action, you could match on that event and say, "Okay, once we discover an mDNS peer, we want to dial them. We wanna try and make a connection." And then if that connection is established successfully, you can run other protocols on top of that. So that's where replication would come in, for example. Okay, once we have this connection established, then we can match on that event, and then we can start our replication protocol, which might be something just very straightforward, like: "Oh, I've got this information, and what have you got? Let's trade."<br/>
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 <strong>max:</strong> Cool, I think I'm following. It's reminding me that I was reading the blog and research of <a href="https://jvns.ca/">Julia Evans</a> in the past couple days. Have you seen her research before by any chance?<br/>
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 <strong>glyph:</strong> Yeah, I have. Some of the zines I've taken a look at.<br/>
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-<strong>max:</strong> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, those ones. And I was learning a lot about networking and internet from reading the stuff, but sometimes it would kind of end up veering into like big tech scale level networking. And I was realizing there's a little bit of an interesting issue that like trying to figure out how much of our current tech stack works the way it does because it's something inherent about networking or does it work this way because this is how you need it to work when you have this centralized model where you have to serve millions of users from particular nodes. And then the degree to which I was wondering how much these networking primitives and tools were going to have to be reinvented or have new people working on them for the context of self-hosted software and peer-to-peer software. And that kind of sounds like that's a little bit what the work you're doing is with the libp2p stuff and even I guess peer-to-panda could also be understood that way too kind of.<br/>
+<strong>max:</strong> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, those ones. And I was learning a lot about networking and the internet from reading that stuff, but sometimes it would kind of end up veering into like big-tech scale level networking. And I was realizing there's a little bit of an interesting issue that like trying to figure out how much of our current tech stack works the way it does because it's something inherent about networking or does it work this way because this is how you need it to work when you have this centralized model where you have to serve millions of users from particular nodes. And then the degree to which I was wondering how much these networking primitives and tools were going to have to be reinvented or have new people working on them for the context of self-hosted software and peer-to-peer software. And that kind of sounds like that's a little bit what the work you're doing is with the libp2p stuff and even I guess p2panda could also be understood that way too kind of.<br/>
 <br/>
-<strong>glyph:</strong> Yeah just trying to make it a bit easier. I mean I think because of the way the network is we have to add in all these things. if the internet were like one big local area network then we could just pull a whole lot of this stuff out, like we just wouldn't need it. So like one of the big issues that I mentioned earlier is nat traversal so when you're behind a home router or firewall and you're not able to make these direct kind of peer-to-peer connections through the internet. So then we have to come up with all these kind of fancy techniques for getting around that, and that often involves a sort of third peer, with a clear accessible IP address that can either act as kind of like a tunnel or a relay or it can help with some synchronization to create a direct connection.<br/>
+<strong>glyph:</strong> Yeah just trying to make it a bit easier. I mean I think because of the way the network is we have to add in all these things. If the internet were like one big local area network then we could just pull a whole lot of this stuff out, like we just wouldn't need it. So one of the big issues that I mentioned earlier is NAT traversal; when you're behind a home router or firewall and you're not able to make these direct peer-to-peer connections through the internet. So then we have to come up with all these fancy techniques for getting around that, and that often involves a sort of third peer with a clear accessible IP address that can either act as a tunnel or a relay or it can help with some synchronization to create a direct connection.<br/>
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-<strong>max:</strong> I would be curious to talk with someone or read something to understand Nat Traversal in more detail, at least some of the common ways that people go about that. Because I guess it comes up for me when we were talking about self-hosting, because we had to do port forwarding, which is basically one simple way that we make a local IP address accessible to the internet. But I guess it's more complicated when you're doing it with multiple peers and continually and stuff and not just one server.<br/>
+<strong>max:</strong> I would be curious to talk with someone or read something to understand NAT Traversal in more detail, at least some of the common ways that people go about that. Because I guess it comes up for me when we were talking about self-hosting, because we had to do port forwarding, which is basically one simple way that we make a local IP address accessible to the internet. But I guess it's more complicated when you're doing it with multiple peers and continually and stuff and not just one server.<br/>
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-<strong>glyph:</strong> Yeah, I think that's why we sort of have this need for, I guess I think of it as a heterogeneous network where some peers do have kind of enhanced capabilities, or in the context of Scuttlebutt we had pubs and now kind of maybe more prevalent or certainly more popular in a contemporary sense in our root servers. You know some other node which has these additional features which can kind of bridge the gap as it were.<br/>
+<strong>glyph:</strong> Yeah, I think that's why we sort of have this need for... I guess I think of it as a heterogeneous network where some peers do have enhanced capabilities, or in the context of Scuttlebutt we had pubs and now maybe more prevalent or certainly more popular in a contemporary sense are room servers. You know, some other node which has these additional features which can kind of bridge the gap as it were.<br/>
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-<strong>max:</strong> That's a super interesting pattern you're observing kind of zoomed out across different protocols that there are these special actors in this heterogeneous network but that yeah the special actors don't need to have all the powers of the corporate centralized server model. They can maybe have lesser powers.<br/>
+<strong>max:</strong> That's a super interesting pattern you're observing kind of zoomed out across different protocols that there are these special actors in this heterogeneous network but that, yeah, the special actors don't need to have all the powers of the corporate centralized server model. They can maybe have lesser powers.<br/>
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-<strong>glyph:</strong> Yeah, they could have a subset or what we're trying right now, we'll see how it works out with Aquadogo, which is the sort of the node of P2Panda, is to have switches for all these capabilities so that actually you're running the same node, you're running the same software, but with some configuration switches, you can say, OK, I would like this to run as a rendezvous server or a relay server so that we still have one piece of software which can adapt and be kind of plastic to meet the needs.<br/>
+<strong>glyph:</strong> Yeah, they could have a subset or what we're trying right now, we'll see how it works out with <a href="https://github.com/p2panda/aquadoggo">aquadoggo</a>, which is the node of p2panda, is to have switches for all these capabilities so that actually you're running the same node, you're running the same software, but with some configuration switches you can say: "OK, I would like this to run as a rendezvous server or a relay server". So that we still have one piece of software which can adapt and be kind of plastic to meet the needs.<br/>
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 ==================<br/>
 <br/>
-<a id="part2">II: Terrence Mckenna, "Find The Others", Network Weaving, The Standardization Of Time</a><br/>
+<a id="part2">II: Terence McKenna, "Find The Others", Network Weaving, The Standardization Of Time</a><br/>
 <br/>
-<strong>max:</strong> Is there more that you want to say about what's going on with Peer2Panda or potentially we could switch to talking about ScuttleButt a little bit?<br/>
+<strong>max:</strong> Is there more that you want to say about what's going on with p2panda or potentially we could switch to talking about Scuttlebutt a little bit?<br/>
 <br/>
-<strong>glyph:</strong> I think I'm good on P2Panda for now. I guess I was trying to subtly or not to subtly communicate this by mentioning the P4P Mumble group, but that's part of the really interesting thing for me of how I got involved in the work of getting to to know people over years on Scuttlebutt and then being like, oh, like actually a bunch of us are working on projects with overlapping interests, even if we have slightly different goals, you know, we should really be talking to one another more often. And then through that kind of community that arose from that, that was how I had the opportunity to work on Peer2Panda. So it's just kind of like, yeah, speaking about patterns, like applying these same things to one's social life as well, and like bridging gaps between networks and different groups, and seeing the opportunities that come from developing that trust.<br/>
+<strong>glyph:</strong> I think I'm good on p2panda for now. I guess I was trying to subtly or not so subtly communicate this by mentioning the P4P Mumble group, but that's part of the really interesting thing for me of how I got involved in the work of getting to know people over years on Scuttlebutt and then being like: "Oh, like actually a bunch of us are working on projects with overlapping interests, even if we have slightly different goals, you know, we should really be talking to one another more often". And then through that kind of community that arose from that, that was how I had the opportunity to work on p2panda. So it's just kind of like, yeah, speaking about patterns, like applying these same things to one's social life as well, and bridging gaps between networks and different groups, and seeing the opportunities that come from developing that trust.<br/>
 <br/>
-<strong>max:</strong> thank for bringing up the social dimension of the open source and peer-to-peer world. I think of you as someone who is a really inspiring network weaver in terms of the way you've actively cultivated and maintained connections within projects, within Scuttlebutt like, but also between protocols. And it's cool that that is panning out with concrete effects for you, like this work with Peer2Panda. And also, like, going back to the way we met, the spell you cast by creating the SolarPunk.network, Scuttlebut Pub, I think was how we originally connected on Scuttlebutt.<br/>
+<strong>max:</strong> Thank for bringing up the social dimension of the open source and peer-to-peer world. I think of you as someone who is a really inspiring network weaver in terms of the way you've actively cultivated and maintained connections within projects, within Scuttlebutt, but also between protocols. And it's cool that that is panning out with concrete effects for you, like this work with p2panda. And also, like, going back to the way we met, the spell you cast by creating the solarpunk.network Scuttlebut pub, I think was how we originally connected on Scuttlebutt.<br/>
 <br/>
-<strong>glyph:</strong> Hmm, yeah, thanks. Yeah, I guess it is. So I listened to a lot of Terrence McKenna recordings in my university years, like a lot. And one of the things that Terrence was famous for saying was "find the others". And when I heard that, I was like particularly interested in consciousness and psychedelics. And I didn't know many people who were interested in those things. So the internet gave me a way of reaching out and connecting and being part of forums and that kind of thing. And I can sort of apply the same thing to those of us who are interested in peer to peer and decentralized socio-technologies. Oftentimes we are the only ones in our physical vicinity. And so it's a case of like reaching out, trying to find those with similar interests and then trying to take it a step further 'cause it can be slightly lonely and isolated work. So trying to just lean on my sense of empathy and what others must be feeling and trying to create opportunities to work together and to share and just travel together.<br/>
+<strong>glyph:</strong> Hmm, yeah, thanks. Yeah, I guess it is... So I listened to a lot of Terence McKenna recordings in my university years, like <em>a lot</em>. And one of the things that Terence was famous for saying was "Find the others". And when I heard that, I was particularly interested in consciousness and psychedelics and I didn't know many people who were interested in those things. So the internet gave me a way of reaching out and connecting and being part of forums and that kind of thing. And I can sort of apply the same thing to those of us who are interested in peer-to-peer and decentralized socio-technologies. Oftentimes we are the only ones in our physical vicinity. And so it's a case of reaching out, trying to find those with similar interests and then trying to take it a step further 'cause it can be slightly lonely and isolated work. So, trying to just lean on my sense of empathy and what others must be feeling and trying to create opportunities to work together and to share and just travel together.<br/>
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-<strong>max:</strong> For some reason, when I think of this topic, I sometimes feel exhausted, but I haven't fully analyzed why. But there's almost this feeling of I would love to help weave multiple networks together. And I know that sometimes I do, just through existing in the world and my interests. But it also reminds me of when I was younger and I used to feel like I wanted to read all the books in the world and I would freak myself out that that was never going to happen. And sometimes for some reason feel like the active maintenance of networks is also daunting to me.<br/>
+<strong>max:</strong> For some reason, when I think of this topic, I sometimes feel exhausted, but I haven't fully analyzed why. But there's almost this feeling of I would love to help weave multiple networks together. And I know that sometimes I do, just through existing in the world and my interests, but it also reminds me of when I was younger and I used to feel like I wanted to read all the books in the world and sometimes I would freak myself out that that was never going to happen. And sometimes for some reason feel like the active maintenance of networks is also daunting to me.<br/>
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-<strong>glyph:</strong> Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot. And yeah, I guess it sort of comes and goes. So like there are times where maybe you are quite inspired by that and you have the capacity and energy and the timing is right and other times where it is daunting and a bit exhausting. I tend to think the sort of thing I have in my mind and I think it's something you've seen through your travels and your experiences. It's something certainly that Luandro has spoken about. And Eric as well, is the power of doing this kind of work in shared physical space. So like having a farm or a village or a place where people are doing this work on a continued basis, even if it's just one or two people. And then there are kind of waves of other people who come to join in and practice and learn together. I really think that's gonna lead to a flourishing peer-to-peer future. Yeah, I mean, we're all trying to build local first software. And that can be most powerful when it's kind of homegrown and meeting local needs, right in the context.<br/>
+<strong>glyph:</strong> Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot. And yeah, I guess it sort of comes and goes hey? So like there are times where maybe you are quite inspired by that and you have the capacity and energy and the timing is right and other times where it is daunting and a bit exhausting. I tend to think, the sort of thing I have in my mind, and I think it's something you've seen through your travels and your experiences. It's something certainly that Luandro has spoken about, and Eric as well, is the power of doing this kind of work in shared physical space. So like having a farm or a village or a place where people are doing this work on a continuous basis, even if it's just one or two people, and then there are kind of waves of other people who come to join in and practice and learn together. I really think that's gonna lead to a flourishing peer-to-peer future. Yeah, I mean, we're all trying to build local-first software and that can be most powerful when it's kind of homegrown and meeting local needs, right in the context.<br/>
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 <strong>max:</strong> Totally. And yeah, I guess I've also felt once you get this chance to meet and be in person, even for some short period of time, it then makes the network richer in its online form often too.<br/>
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 <strong>glyph:</strong> Absolutely.<br/>
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-<strong>max:</strong> Yeah, and I feel you about having different energy at different times for this type of network weaving or cultivation. And it also reminds me that, I guess ever since I left Instagram, I haven't deleted my account, but I don't use it so much, I noticed I don't manage to maintain connections with certain folks, but through Scuttlebutt and the Fediverse, there have been some digital connections that stayed, So I also do see the power of these networks for kind of like passively keeping connection alive. 'Cause like, yeah, maybe even if it's great, if you have the energy to organize in-person meetings or like this mumble call where you're really actively consciously getting people together, that's obviously like a really powerful way of keeping things alive. But when you don't have that energy and you're kind of more passively just like posting, that still can keep things alive. Or sometimes, yeah, you just see someone who you haven't thought about in a while post something and you're like, oh yeah, that person, you still feel like you're connected in some way.<br/>
+<strong>max:</strong> Yeah, and I feel you about having different energy at different times for this type of network weaving or cultivation. And it also reminds me that, I guess ever since I left Instagram &mdash; I haven't deleted my account but I don't use it so much &mdash; I noticed I don't manage to maintain connections with certain folks, but through Scuttlebutt and the Fediverse there have been some digital connections that stayed. So I also do see the power of these networks for kind of like passively keeping connection alive. 'Cause like, yeah, maybe even if it's great, if you have the energy to organize in-person meetings or like this mumble call where you're really actively, consciously getting people together, that's obviously like a really powerful way of keeping things alive. But when you don't have that energy and you're kind of more passively just like posting, that still can keep things alive. Or sometimes, yeah, you just see someone who you haven't thought about in a while post something and you're like, oh yeah, that person, you still feel like you're connected in some way.<br/>
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-<strong>glyph:</strong> Yeah, totally. In the question prompts in the document you drew up, you spoke a little bit about biomimicry and observing non-human beings and processes and then applying those observations to one's life and one's work. And I think this quality of ebb and flow or like pulses and waves is something that I see in the world around me. Like there's nothing, there are no constant outputs. And I think in contemporary times, and maybe it's a product of like capitalism and many parts of the world now having like always on internet, always on electricity. it kind of creates a sort of pressure and it can be a little bit more difficult to time one's actions in a way that's balanced and healthy because the capacity to connect is always there, right? Even if it's like making a post or liking someone's post. I think of it as quite unnatural and I think it throws us out of balance in a lot of ways.<br/>
+<strong>glyph:</strong> Yeah, totally. In the question prompts in the document you drew up, you spoke a little bit about biomimicry and observing non-human beings and processes and then applying those observations to one's life and one's work. And I think this quality of ebb and flow or like pulses and waves is something that I see in the world around me. Like there's nothing... there are no constant outputs. And I think in contemporary times, and maybe it's a product of like capitalism and many parts of the world now having always on internet, always on electricity. It kind of creates a sort of pressure and it can be a little bit more difficult to time one's actions in a way that's balanced and healthy because the capacity to connect is always there, right? Even if it's like making a post or liking someone's post. I think of it as quite unnatural and I think it throws us out of balance in a lot of ways.<br/>
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-<strong>max:</strong> that's really beautiful<br/>
+<strong>max:</strong> That's really beautiful.<br/>
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-<strong>glyph:</strong> Like now in South Africa, well for at least a decade we've had power cuts and so on a daily basis where we have daylight hours anywhere between two and four hours of no electricity and that actually helps me be more balanced because it's like okay, it's 2 p.m. Power is going out What am I gonna do? I could read or I could wash dishes or I could go for a walk. It sort of breaks that unnatural cycle<br/>
+<strong>glyph:</strong> Like now in South Africa, well for at least a decade we've had power cuts. And so on a daily basis we have, in daylight hours anywhere between two and four hours of no electricity. That actually helps me be more balanced because it's like "OK, it's 2 p.m, power is going out. What am I gonna do? I could read or I could wash dishes or I could go for a walk". It sort of breaks that unnatural cycle<br/>
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-<strong>max:</strong> Yeah, I wonder how we can connect more with healthy timing? Yeah, because you're right that does seem like very much how all of nature works from the seasons to the day to life cycle evolution and it's pretty funny that with 24/7 stuff we can get disconnected from that and get into sort of weird relationships with time.<br/>
+<strong>max:</strong> Yeah, I wonder how we can connect more with healthy timing? Yeah, because you're right that does seem like very much how <em>all</em> of nature works. From the seasons to the day to life cycle evolution and it's pretty funny that with 24/7 stuff we can get disconnected from that and get into sort of weird relationships with time.<br/>
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-<strong>glyph:</strong> Yeah, totally. It's like the standardization of time. I guess maybe it's like a Cartesian thing of wanting to measure and divide everything neatly and then an hour is is sort of standardized. an hour is an hour. So then nine to five, Monday to Fridays, it's kind of easy to impose. And yeah, so that's what I think like, gardening, long bike rides, anything where you're sort of outside of that form of time and you can observe, like I say, like non-human processes and beings and just see what they're doing. And then you can learn from that. I know in Daoist philosophy, timing is a big, is quite an important point. Like sometimes timing is of primary importance and action is a secondary thing, then it's a case of like cultivating some kind of intuition for timing and when is the appropriate time because then the activation energy is that much lower. I kind of think of it like, I don't know if you're a surfer trying to catch a wave and if the wave is the swell is 100 meters away and you start frantically paddling, you're going to run out of energy by by the time it actually reaches you. And so by initiating your paddle at just the right time, you can catch the wave with the smallest amount of energy, and then from a third party perspective, it looks effortless. And that can be applied throughout life.<br/>
+<strong>glyph:</strong> Yeah, totally. It's like the standardization of time. I guess maybe it's a Cartesian thing of wanting to measure and divide everything neatly and then an hour is sort of standardized. An hour is an hour. So then nine to five, Monday to Fridays; it's kind of easy to impose. And yeah, so that's what I think like: gardening, long bike rides, anything where you're sort of outside of that form of time and you can observe, like I say, non-human processes and beings and just see what they're doing. And then you can learn from that. I know in Taoist philosophy, timing is a big... is quite an important point. Sometimes timing is of primary importance and action is a secondary thing. Then it's a case of cultivating some kind of intuition for timing and when is the appropriate time. Because then the activation energy is that much lower. I kind of think of it like, I don't know, if you're a surfer trying to catch a wave. If the swell is 100 meters away and you start frantically paddling, you're going to run out of energy by the time it actually reaches you. And so by initiating your paddle at just the right time you can catch the wave with the smallest amount of energy, and then from a third party perspective it looks effortless. And that can be applied throughout life.<br/>
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-<strong>max:</strong> This is making me think about my initial reaction to how to cultivate timing is just to sensitize the perception and to be in a place where we can notice things. Yeah, like your tips of gardening or getting out, but then for my own journey I was thinking about sobriety and other ways to just try to become more aware of what's happening. so that when you do have to do some swimming, hopefully you can do it at the right moment.<br/>
+<strong>max:</strong> This is making me think about... My initial reaction to how to cultivate timing is just to sensitize the perception and to be in a place where we can notice things. Yeah, like your tips of gardening or getting out, but then for my own journey I was thinking about sobriety and other ways to just try to become more aware of what's happening. So that when you do have to do some swimming, hopefully you can do it at the right moment.<br/>
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-<strong>glyph:</strong> Yeah, totally. And I guess part of that is guilt as well. Because this was something that I was thinking about a lot in years gone by. Like after my travels in South America and then when I was basically working for myself I didn't have any external time constraints, then it's like, gee, how do I organize my time? And there was this part of my mind that was highly critical and I would feel guilty about like, oh, it's 10 a.m. on a Tuesday and I'm not working, like I should be working, you know, I should be doing XYZ. And then again, observing the creatures around me, I was like, well, when the cheetah is like taking a nap under the tree, I don't think it's berating itself for not hunting. You know, it's not like gee I'm a terrible cheetah. I'm just laying around. I should be trying to catch some dinner, but I'm not I'm the worst. I don't think that happens somehow.<br/>
+<strong>glyph:</strong> Yup, totally. And I guess part of that is guilt as well. Because this was something that I was thinking about a lot in years gone by. Like after my travels in South America and then when I was basically working for myself and I didn't have any external time constraints, then it's like: "Gee, how do I organize my time?" And there was this part of my mind that was highly critical and I would feel guilty about like: "Ah, it's 10 a.m. on a Tuesday and I'm not working, like I should be working, you know, I should be doing XYZ". And then again, observing the creatures around me, I was like: "Well, when the cheetah is taking a nap under the tree, I don't think it's berating itself for not hunting". You know, it's not like: "Gee, I'm a terrible cheetah. I'm just laying around. I should be trying to catch some dinner, but I'm not. I'm the worst". I don't think that happens, somehow.<br/>
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-<strong>max:</strong> that also makes me think of a chipmunk I was watching the other day that was just like going up and down some tree. This was kind of a reverse issue, but I was just like, what are you doing? (laughing) Like you just keep, like what are you looking for? You're so active. I assume he or she had some good reason for going up and down this tree, so frequently. Maybe not.<br/>
+<strong>max:</strong> That also makes me think of a chipmunk I was watching the other day that was just like going up and down some tree. This was kind of a reverse issue, but I was just like: "What are you doing? (laughing) Like you just keep, like what are you looking for? You're so active". I assume he or she had some good reason for going up and down this tree, so frequently. Maybe not.<br/>
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-<strong>glyph:</strong> maybe it just felt good.<br/>
+<strong>glyph:</strong> Maybe it just felt good.<br/>
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 <strong>max:</strong> Yeah, yeah, he just needed to move around a bit. Well, I'm looking back at the notes now to see. It's good that we took a winding journey through it so that we could get to some good stuff even if we don't get to everything. Timing is interesting with planning software projects too. I was thinking about this with our work on PeachCloud, but like figuring out when is the right time to build on top of something, the timing of all the different Scuttlebutt components working together or not working together.<br/>
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@@ -212,13 +212,13 @@ The idea there was like, okay, we already have open collective for the instance,
 <br/>
 <strong>max:</strong> Are you personally interested in participating in some of these shared schemes? you're kind of also in this open source freelancer route right now it seems like, just developing a network and finding different projects or do you have any dreams of changing how you work?<br/>
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-<strong>glyph:</strong> I'm really happy and I'd love to keep doing this. I've been very, very fortunate to be funded to work on open source peer-to-peer stuff for the last few years. So I guess part of my personal strategy and approach is to continue building relationships and friendships amongst those who are working in this kind of direction. And I'm really happy that this year I'm contributing to P2Panda. I'm going to be be contributing to Cabal, and then I'm doing some Scuttlebutt stuff, so that feels really good in terms of just having a little bit more resilience. But I would like to take that next step and do some kind of collective finance management sort of thing. I think in some sense, the relationships that I've been developing over these years and the work that I've been doing is building towards that because I think it is something that requires a lot of trust. But certainly it's also something that human people have been doing for a long, long time. There's all kinds of places around the world where there are like collective savings pools and different kinds of community finance structures. So I think that would help because that is the tricky thing with freelancing, is having that security or I've also heard it spoken about in terms of, especially if you're getting a lot of your income from grants, maybe halfway through a grant project and you're already having to think about grant applications for the future.<br/>
+<strong>glyph:</strong> I'm really happy and I'd love to keep doing this. I've been very, very fortunate to be funded to work on open source peer-to-peer stuff for the last few years. So I guess part of my personal strategy and approach is to continue building relationships and friendships amongst those who are working in this kind of direction. And I'm really happy that this year I'm contributing to p2panda. I'm going to be be contributing to Cabal, and then I'm doing some Scuttlebutt stuff, so that feels really good in terms of just having a little bit more resilience. But I would like to take that next step and do some kind of collective finance management sort of thing. I think in some sense, the relationships that I've been developing over these years and the work that I've been doing is building towards that because I think it is something that requires a lot of trust. But certainly it's also something that human people have been doing for a long, long time. There's all kinds of places around the world where there are like collective savings pools and different kinds of community finance structures. So I think that would help because that is the tricky thing with freelancing, is having that security or I've also heard it spoken about in terms of, especially if you're getting a lot of your income from grants, maybe halfway through a grant project and you're already having to think about grant applications for the future.<br/>
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 <strong>max:</strong> This was a topic on Alex's mind as well.<br/>
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 <strong>glyph:</strong> Nice. Yeah, I think Alex has thought quite a lot about this kind of thing and has some really good ideas.<br/>
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-<strong>max:</strong> It's cool to hear and to imagine more decentralized or open source focused collaborative groups, whether <a href="https://autonomic.zone/">autonomic</a> or peer2panda. And yeah, I feel you too that the work you're doing already is maybe creating the groundwork that could blossom into that later.<br/>
+<strong>max:</strong> It's cool to hear and to imagine more decentralized or open source focused collaborative groups, whether <a href="https://autonomic.zone/">autonomic</a> or p2panda. And yeah, I feel you too that the work you're doing already is maybe creating the groundwork that could blossom into that later.<br/>
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 <strong>glyph:</strong> Yeah, I guess quite a few of us who work on peer-to-peer open source stuff, we're already used to having, well put it this way, we don't lead extravagant lives. like we're not driving fancy cars and living in expensive apartments and that kind of thing. I think generally fairly simple people in terms of our material needs and expenditure. So we're already used to living quite cheaply, but just that level of stability and security that comes with knowing like, okay, at the end of this month, I'm going to receive X amount and for the next 12 months that's going to be what's happening just to even things out a bit. But yeah, we'll see what the future holds.<br/>
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@@ -258,4 +258,4 @@ Thanks a lot for taking the time, I will end the recording, but that seems like
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